The Earnest Contender

Sunday, February 12, 2006

Preliminary Remarks as to the Office of the Pastor

In making some preliminary remarks as to the office of the pastor, I assume that it is understood (for the most part) that it is usually a pastor or a deacon who also serves as treasurer, trustee, and other offices that are necessary to “conduct business” (see Acts 6:3)

It is important to state that an office is not a spiritual gift, and a spiritual gift alone does not qualify anyone for an office*.

An officer is one who is elected or appointed to an office or position of authority or a certain function under authority. In a Baptist church the pastor must be a church member and his calling must be affirmed or recognized by a vote of the church (cf. Acts 6:5).

Pastors are given a trust to perform the task or duty to be carried out with the authority of the church. This has to do with the “hats” he wears, or better put: the titles he bears. What then are these titles he bears? There are three titles for this office; they are pastor, elder, and bishop.

Pastor, Poimen GK, means shepherd and is used of those who care for sheep (cf. Luke 2: 8) It is also used in the NT of church leaders (see Eph. 4:11). Related words are the noun "flock" (poimnion) and the verb "to feed" or "to shepherd" (poimaino). In John 10:11, Jesus calls Himself the Good Shepherd (poimen). Compare this 1Peter 5:4 where he refers to Christ as the Chief Shepherd. Both of these examples relate Christ's Care for His people. We may think of Him as our Good Pastor and the Chief Pastor. Similarly, the verb poimaino, "to feed" or "to shepherd" can mean "to pastor" when ministy to people are in view. This is exactly the case when Jesus told Peter to, "...feed [His] sheep."John 21:16

Elder, Presbuteros GK. Suggests one who is older wiser and or more mature. I believe a young man who demonstrates characteristics of maturity and wisdom may also fill the office of elder. What do you think are marks of maturity and wisdom? Why does a pastor have to be mature? How does maturity develop?

Bishop, episcopos GK, refers to an overseer, one who leads and give direction. What are some areas in a local church a pastor should oversee?

This is one office with three titles. It is proper for me to speak of pastor De Courcy, elder De Courcy, or bishop De Courcy. (cf. Acts 20:17-38; Titus 1:5,7a; 1Pet.5:2; 1Tim.5:17) Actually he prefers bishop, but his wife and friends call him Philip.

Next post: The Qualities of the Pastor, NOT the Qualifications of a Pastor

*I will reserve the spiritual gifts issue for another post that is in the works, even as this one is being published.

24 Comments:

Although it will probably give you comfort that I agree with your definition of the office of pastor, it is likely that there will be those who disagree.

This is America.

They have the right to be wrong.

By Joe, at 13/2/06 6:53 AM
John, with much respect, I find this post baffling.

I do not understand why you think a pastor is the holder of an office as opposed to a spiritual gift. Ephesians 4:11 seems clear that it is a gift that is given by the Holy Spirit. Could we appoint a prophet or an apostle?

You also seem to view elders and pastors as the same office. Is this a warranted conclusion?

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 13/2/06 7:40 AM
And thanks for the link, John.

By Matthew Celestine, at 13/2/06 7:45 AM
Do you mean they are different aspects of the same office?

Warmly,

Jodie

By Unknown, at 13/2/06 9:16 PM
Hi again. I sortof agree with Joe... that is, I don't disagree with your definition of the "office of pastor" per se. Now, as to whether it's a Biblical definition, I have strong doubts, and a few questions:

1) How do you know there was a democratic "vote" during that situation in Acts?

2) From where do you draw your distinction over the terms "office" and "gift"? Is there some verse or passage I'm not aware of that mentions both terms, and draws a distinction?

3) There's definitely a shepherd metaphor in the passages you mention. But how much of the job description of Baptist preachers does that single word... "shepherd"... really spell out for us?

4) Yes, episcopos means overseer. But can you name a man in the NT who was one? Can you list the specific actions he took? Can you tell me how that fits with (or justifies) the typical actions of a Baptist preacher?

These are sincere questions. I'll assume you can surprise me. But these questions may also clue you in to how I think.

Have a pastor. Be a pastor. But... is it "scriptural"?

I await your response! :)

By Bill Heroman, at 13/2/06 10:33 PM
Hi Joe,
Amen! That's one thing that makes this a great country... Oh and the fact that other may disagree :)

Hi Matthew,
there is no opposition. The point is that there are those who have the gift that do not hold an office, and vice versa.

The rest (the elder question) may become clear as we move along on this topic.

I am pleased to have such a fine young man on my blogroll.

Hi H. K.
Yes, in some ways, stay tuned.

Hi Hero,
When I return from work tonight you will get a reply.

Thanks for you good questions, this will help clearify this issue.

Have a good and godly day all,
brother John

By J. Wendell, at 14/2/06 7:28 AM
John, thankyou for your compliments.

I cannot see that being a pastor is an office. If a man has the gift of a pastor, it makes him a pstor. I cannot see anything in Scripture to suggest that a pastor is appointed by men.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 14/2/06 9:58 AM
Hi Hero Bill,
getting back to your questions...

1) How do you know there was a democratic "vote" during that situation in Acts?
I do not assume a vote or numbers. There were 3000 souls saved at Pentecost. These were added to the church. Many of these, I suppose, went back to their homes sometime after this. Perhaps there were some that did not. We do know from the book of Acts that the disciples cast lots to see who would replace Judas Acts 1:20, 26. They wanted to see who would take his place as an overseer (bishopric) he was also the treasuer. When we jump over to those that many assume were the first deacons we see that the selection pleased the multitude. The inference is that somehow they knew the majority were in agreement with the decisions being made. Who really knows maybe they gave a hearty a-men! What the text does say is, “…the saying pleased the whole multitude” (Acts 6:5)

2) From where do you draw your distinction over the terms "office" and "gift"? Is there some verse or passage I'm not aware of that mentions both terms, and draws a distinction?

To answer this one let’s consider a working definition of what an officer is as stated in my post, “An officer is one who is elected or appointed to an office or position of authority or a certain function under authority.” I think Websters dictionary will affirm this or say something close to it. Now… as I admited, I do not know in what method the majority used to expressss their approval in Acts, but I do know that, “In a Baptist church the pastor must be a church member and his calling must be affirmed or recognized by a vote of the church.” A spiritual gift is NOT an office. An office is NOT a gift. The bottom line is there might not be Scripture that draws this distinction, why should there be? A gift is a gift. An office is an office. Do you need Scripture to believe there is a distinction?

3) There's definitely a shepherd metaphor in the passages you mention. But how much of the job description of Baptist preachers does that single word... "shepherd"... really spell out for us?
“A Church may view its pastor as administrator, builder, cheerleader, committee chairman, community leader, counselor, liaison, encourager, equipper, evangelist, example, friend, fund-raiser, innovator, leader, motivator, organizer overseer, pacesetter, planning consultant, preacher, prophet, shaper of traditions, shepherd, teacher, theologian, umpire, visionary and visitor… What other characterizations could you put in [a] pastor’s job description?” (Anderson) Bill according to the post I have allowed you to keep on this thread and this last quote from Donald K. Anderson, and as I have stated as well these are NOT biblical descriptions. That is why my next post is about the qualities of the pastor not the qualifications of the pastor.

4) Yes, episcopos means overseer. But can you name a man in the NT who was one? Can you list the specific actions he took? Can you tell me how that fits with (or justifies) the typical actions of a Baptist preacher?
I don’t know what you mean by typical... the job you describe is impossible for anyone to fill be he a Baptist or not. Bill come back if you wish to see the biblical pattern I support.

I don’t know if I satisfied your “…sincere questions...” or if I surprised you, neither of these is my objective which may also clue you in to how I think.

Hi Matthew,

What name do you use to describe your curch leader/s? How does God use your church to affirm such one/s?

I think I asked a few questians in my post, but no one has taken the bait. ;)

It has been a long, but good day... may each have God's richest blessing...
brother John

By J. Wendell, at 14/2/06 11:48 PM
Hey again!

Re: 1) - Okay. Thanks for that.

Re: 2) - I'll take Websters and I'll take Baptist tradition, if those are your sources. That's fine. I just thought the point of your thread was to show how your view was Biblical... did I err?

Re: 3) - Oh, okay. I erred. Sorry! :)

Brother, please know I'll give you grace for whatever definition of "gift" and "office" and "pastor" that you want to present. I just don't understand yet, where you're getting them from. I'll stay tuned.

Re: 4) - Okay. Btw, if your own experience of "pastors" is atypical from what I've seen, then my curiosity has definitely increased...

And I did spot your questions about "pastors". But I don't even feel like I know what you mean by that word, yet. Honestly.

Thanks for your grace, John.

I'm still listening.

By Bill Heroman, at 15/2/06 1:04 AM
Hi Bill,

I gave a definition of pastor in this post from the Bible. That is what is meant. Are we in agreement with what the Bible says here? Do you feel the word means something else that I am not seeing? Am I not getting these terms from the Bible?

Bill, let's be honest... you know there is a big difference between the biblical word gift (charisma) and the biblical word office (praxis) they are not the same. My position is that one with the spiritual gift of "mercy" may serve or "officiate" as a pastor. While one with the spiritual gift of pastor may not necessarily serve in the "office" of pastor. I know one or two who I believe have the gift of pastor/teacher but at this point would not be ready in maturity to serve in either capasity. Does this help? I am not trying to be completely illusive here but I don't want to get bogged down on a discussion at this point on spiritual gifts.

God's best,
brother John

By J. Wendell, at 15/2/06 1:55 AM
There is a pstor in my church.

He does most of teh preaching.
He holds surgeries where you can come to see him. He holds Bible study classes.

He provides training in how to preach.

But is his role Biblical?

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 15/2/06 3:36 AM
Hi Mathew,
I don't know about his role, but it is my contention that the office is...

The question you and Bill may be after is, “Who is in charge then?” Bishop (overseer), pastor (shepherd), elder (presbyter), are three words that describe the pastor who is designated in Scriptures as an officer (1Tim. 3:1), but the pastor does not control a biblical Baptist church.

So called elder rule is not the best model to follow. The deacon is a helper of the pastor and the servant of the church, and is also designated in Scriptures as an officer (1Tim. 3:10), but deacons are not in control of a biblical Baptist church (The Church (including the pastor/s, the deacons, and the congregation) has the final say in the official business of the church. In fact biblical Baptists have both a Congregational and Presbyterian model of government, yet the church is not in control of a biblical Baptist church.

“Who is in charge then?” The answer is found in the Bible. The Bible (God’s Word) is the authority, no mater how we approach it, and we read (in Eph. 1:22 and Col. 1:18) that Christ is the Head of the church.

I hope this helps,

brother John

By J. Wendell, at 15/2/06 6:53 AM
John I think your previous comment here has hit on the primary point of contention. Scriptural authority and responsibility are the key here IMO. I'm hanging in there! ;-)

By Kc, at 15/2/06 9:38 AM
Indeed God's Word is the rule.

I have my doubts that most churches use it in shaping their ecclesiology. With respect to you, I fear that you are reading your favoured model into the New Testament.

Maybe your next post will help to persuade me.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 15/2/06 12:27 PM
John, I enjoyed your post. Let me say up front that I agree with you.

A thought occurred to me (somewhat out of the ordinary for me) when I read Bill's first question concerning the democratic process in the book of Acts.

I think we should keep in mind that Peter was by default the leader of the Jerusalem church. Also during this period we find several instances of God specifically commanding various individuals to assume certain roles.

As far as the democratic process being used, Acts 6 seems to indicate that at least a modicum of this process was employed in the selection of deacons.

I enjoyed the post and the comments.

By Gordon, at 15/2/06 2:14 PM
There may well have been a vote, however, the power of ordination was in the hands of the apostles. Only they could appoint these men to office.

As there are no apostles in the Church today, there is no power of appointment.

Coming back to the post, there is no mention in Scripture of pastors being appointed. To talk of appointing pastors is like talking of appointing prophets and apostles; these are gifts of God.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 15/2/06 4:08 PM
Democracy... we come in with so many assumptions we really can't help. I thought John was right on when his comment said, "Who knows? Maybe they just offered a hearty Amen!"

But so many people immediately assume it was a "vote".

Rome (technically) had a representational government until Caesar. Greek cities had an exclusive democracy that was almost an oligarchy. And it became "representative" later on. And then, there were always the tyrants...

I get lost trying to seperate terms from assumptions. (You have a tough task, here, Brother John!) At the very least, I guess I get the difference between xaris and praxis. (I didn't know praxis was the greek word for "office". Interesting...)

I tend to focus on actual people and their actual deeds.

I'm not worried about "government" or "control"...

And I'm still very intrigued to find out more about what y'all's "pastors" are like...

By Bill Heroman, at 15/2/06 4:10 PM
Oh... John, which part of the post was the definition, please?

Thanks for your grace, again...

By Bill Heroman, at 15/2/06 4:13 PM
K C, Matthew, Gordon Cloud, Hero Bill

Thank you for the blessing of your visit. I wish you could come into my living room so we could discuss this issue face to face I am a much better talker than writer.

By J. Wendell, at 15/2/06 11:04 PM
Then EDIT, dear Johnny, dear Johnny, dear Johnny... :)

It's cheaper than gas money and it takes less time than driving... or in Matthew's case, swimming! :)

HAHA! :)

But sure, face to face would be nicer. You really do seem like a wonderful brother. Thanks again for the graciousness and the smile.

If I'm ever in NW Ohio, I'll be happy to sit on your sofa OR pew. (Not to make any assumptions here!) :)

By Bill Heroman, at 15/2/06 11:11 PM
What does HeroBill mean by "EDIT"? Does he mean cut and paste? ;~)

Good post, John! You're the best!

By Rose~, at 15/2/06 11:41 PM
Hi John
I have been sitting back having a Great study just read what you all have wrote. John you are a very good writer ... Thank You for this post Brother

By forgiven, at 17/2/06 12:26 PM
Hi Rose~ I can answer that question for you... I don't know.

Forgiven, what a great name!
I have wanted to tell you that for some time now because it is something that Christ has done for us, and something we should always extend to each other. Brothers and sisters may find themselves in a fuss from time to time, but that is true of every family, no matter how close we are.

Thank you for you your kind words I'm still working at it.

brother John

By J. Wendell, at 17/2/06 3:48 PM
Sorry to be dense, John. I don't think you're a bad writer.

When you said, "I am a much better talker than writer," I took that to mean that you felt your own words weren't doing a very good job of getting your ideas across.

So by "edit" I merely meant, "then try different words". (I revise a lot myself, before I post.)

I meant it only as a helpful tip, not as a critique. But I beg you to forgive me if I sounded like that kind of an English teacher! :)

I just wanted to understand better.

Hope I'm not being (too much of) a pain...

By Bill Heroman, at 19/2/06 2:59 AM