Truth Warrior

Tuesday, March 07, 2006

The Vote

In Acts 1:26 we read:

“And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”

The word numbered is sugkatapsēphizō

Thayer Definition:
1) be depositing a ballot in the urn (i.e. by voting for) to assign one a place among, to vote one a place among
2) to vote against with others, i.e. to condemn with others
Part of Speech: verb

In Acts 14: 22-23 note:
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”

The word ordained is cheirotoneō

Thayer Definition:
1) to vote by stretching out the hand
2) to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
3) to elect, create, appoint
Part of Speech: verb

The role of the local churches not the apostolic office is emphasized in Acts 18:16-24:

…thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.
For indeed he accepted the exhortation; but being more forward, of his own accord he went unto you. And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches; And not that only, but who was also chosen
[or voted, cheirotoneō as we have previously looked at in Acts 14:23] of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind: Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us: Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men. And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ. Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.


Doing church, as instructed in 1Corinthians, should be decent and orderly (cf. 1Cor.14:40). If you are a member of a local church you have a responsibility to God and the church to fast pray and vote, this is how the church moves forward.

24 Comments:

  • John,
    Now that you are posting regularly and your posts are so well done, I think maybe you need a face-lift here. I am inspired!

    I really appreciate and respect what you have been doing in the last month. Maybe I will close up my blog and just help you out here with graphics, proofreading etc ...

    Do you want a three-column template or the regular two-column? Love ya! :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/3/06 11:37 AM  

  • Rose~, you are talking about closing you blog? Surely not! Dont do it!

    Interesting post, John.

    As regards your poll, I did not feel able to vote either way.

    God Bless

    Matthew

    By Blogger Matthew Celestine, at 8/3/06 11:59 AM  

  • Rose~
    If you are going to anything graphic to this blog, then I don't want to hinder your creative abilities in any way! Do what you think gives it the best feel.

    Can you make it so it isn't stark and dry and still reflect my personality?

    Hi Matthew,
    Good! I pulled the poll as soon as I noticed it was advertising unwanted sites. Ikes!!!

    You were able you just elected not too, right? :)

    Matthew, Jeff, and Hero Bill-

    I don't know if anyone can show me chapter and verse to suport their feeling that:

    Congregational voting is wrong.

    That the office,of the pastor is unbiblical.

    That the assembling together of a local church is wrong (no matter what the setting).

    I am looking for something positive, something that is there, not something that is not there.

    In His fellowship
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 8/3/06 1:09 PM  

  • Well, I think the issue of congregational voting is irrelevant. I cannot prove one way or another that a vote took place in that passage. What is certain is that the men were appointed by the apostles after they had been selected. They may have been selcted by vote, but they were appointed by the apostles.

    As for the office of pastor, it seems to me that the New Testament has very little to say about pastors. The gift of the pastor is there, but the actual role of the pastor is not defined clearly.

    The reason that people are so keen to define it is because of the centrality of pastors in so many denominations.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Matthew Celestine, at 8/3/06 2:05 PM  

  • Thanks Matthew,

    I should give you the heads up my next post, if God permits, will be a delineation of the "very little [the NT has] to say about pastors.

    His blessings back,
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 8/3/06 2:20 PM  

  • Hey, John.
    This blogosphere is such an interesting place, with all this polite non-arguing! :) But seriously, as you seem to really want this to remain as a "forum" so-to-speak, then I'm delighted to keep dropping by. So we go on for now... :)

    I did check out your site. The style of giving them all the word "Pastor" in their titles was interesting. I'll give you this much at least - it made me realize we have no idea how many men Paul met with on that beach! If it was only six, then that could be a point in your favor! ;)

    (We have so many blind spots in this century, about the bible; and so many assumptions. I'm amazed I never wondered specifically how many men it was! So there's another reason I appreciate getting to work through this together, very much!)

    Back to your site. Based on what I said above, it does do a good job of seeming closer to your view of the elders at Miletus, etc...

    So my next question is:

    Do you have any scriptural grounds for making ONE of those men (overseers/pastors/elders, as you posted) the "Head" of the rest?

    I assume "Senior Pastor" doesn't mean the opposite of "Youth Pastor"! ;) It means "chief" or "top", right?

    I await your response...

    And to your question of the comments of the previous post: "Say can anyone tell me when local churches stopped having leaders?"

    I don't understand. (Was that question to me?)

    My own view is that leaderSHIP is natural and organic to the body of christ. I believe the churches of Paul in the NT had elders, but that ALL the brothers and sisters took turns leading. I don't think the elders did that much from day to day, and my strong feeling is that they did NOT dominate ANY of the meetings ("assemblies").

    Having one man preach each week (or even a rotating team) is not something I see any scriptural grounds for, either. (But 1 Cor 11 is the way we meet in my town.) We meet, we all "lead"... The body of christ will always have leaders.

    But whether or not to designate (and pay) a select group to do the lion's share of that leading... well, that's another question, isn't it? ;)

    And yes, the front page on my NoPastor site is the way I honestly feel. For example, if I'm right, then I might say you guys aren't following the biblical pattern very closely at all, BUT...

    But, seriously, when did God ever say we had to follow the biblical pattern?


    Really. He accepts the Catholics, doesn't He? And I imagine we BOTH agree that THEY don't follow the Bible! (I can say that. I'm from South Louisiana. Trust me - they're not offended!) They just teach that God 'evolved' the structure of church government over time. Which is what many Reformed schools teach as well, I believe.) ;)

    Gosh... I just wrote a book here!

    Thanks again for your openness.

    Backhand, over the net... :)

    By Blogger Bill Heroman, at 8/3/06 5:15 PM  

  • John,

    I think Paul has some very good arguments that he should have been the twelfth apostle. He of course does not come out and say that but he does make a striking comment when he calls himself an apostle of God and not by man. It seems to me he is making a pointed insinuation upon the choosing of Matthias to replace Judas.

    Anyways the choosing by lot was a flawed system as well. Was Matthias ever mentioned again in the scriptures? God will raise up His men and it won't matter what men do or say about it. If you look at church history you will see this to be the case.

    Of course we need structure in the church but we must be sensitive to who the Holy Spirit has set apart for the work of the ministry.

    God bless, keep up the challenging posts.

    Jim

    By Blogger Jim, at 8/3/06 11:36 PM  

  • Jim, I do not think there is enougth Scriptural warrant to say that the choosing of Matthias was flawed. It is true that he is never mentioned again, but the rest of the 12 get little mention.

    I think we need to recognise the Dispensational character of Paul' ministry. Paul was chosen after the closing of the Jewish dispensation and the entrance of Gentiles into the Church. Before then, the Church was a primarily Jewish body. The ministry of the Twelve was to Israel foremost, though, had the Jews repented, their ministry would have extended to the whole earth without the closure of the Jewish dispensation.

    Paul had an authority and role that was completely distinct from that of the Twelve. This reflects the distinctive heavenly character of the Church.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Matthew Celestine, at 9/3/06 4:49 AM  

  • HelloHello HB,

    Do you have any scriptural grounds for making ONE of those men (overseers/pastors/elders, as you posted) the "Head" of the rest?

    Yes. I assume here that chapter and verse are not necessary since no one (not just you HB) thus far has produced any to clearly support the idea that independent local churches do not have liberty in Christ to choose whom we wish.

    I don't understand. (Was that question to me?) No that was for anyone.

    I read 1Cor.11 and I am sorry, I don’t see where Paul instructs believers not to vote. I will read it again too because I don’t see where Paul told the sheep to serve as shepherds.

    No one could read into this restrictive passage any pattern of leadership since this passage is not dealing with a leadership problem it is dealing with an attitude problem. I believe any local church has the liberty to set up the government of their choosing if it is God’s will. The pattern I lift out of 1Cor. 11 (if any) is order, harmony, sharing with one another love in action. We can’t negate passages like Romans 12 and 13. Did I ever mention the word prax'-is (used in Romans 12:3) means practice, that is, (concretely) an act; by extension a function: - deed, office, work. (boldface mine)Strong’s

    The very Word ep-is'-kop-os (cf. 1Tim.3; Titus 1:7;) means a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer. (Strong’s)
    Thayer’s Definition is
    1) an overseer
    1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
    1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church
    Part of Speech: noun masculine

    HB said, “Really. He accepts the Catholics, doesn't He?” Yes! If they turn from a religion of works to Christ alone (see the post brother Jeremy, of Doxoblogy, put up here) otherwise no! God’s acceptance is on the merit of Christ’s sacrifice, not works rightousness. If I have Catholic readers, this is the truth, offended or not. My purpose is not to offend, but to voice the truth.

    Thanks HB for the lively discussion.

    Hi Matthew and Jim,
    Good points you make, but the onis is now/still on you to make a case against voting privileges of those in a local body of believers, filled with the Spirit, when Paul reminds us that even the least in the body of Christ will judge angels…

    have a good and godly day,
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 9/3/06 7:00 AM  

  • I've been attending regularly for two months now...reading the Bible for almost two years (on and off). Sites such as yours inspire me. I don't have much Christian fellowship here in Miami. I'll be back to read more when I have more time!

    Keep up the good work(s)!

    By Blogger Ileana, at 9/3/06 7:39 AM  

  • Well, I think it is irrelevant whether the selection of officers is by vote, because we have no apostles or their delegates to appoint them.

    The question of voting is a non-issue.

    The burden of proof lies upon you, John to produce some apostles to appoint the men you vote for.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Matthew Celestine, at 9/3/06 9:21 AM  

  • John, I wasn't talking about voting. I don't take issue with it. Indeed, they might have voted. Go ahead and have voting.

    Please read my comments again; I was mainly responding to your comments from the previous post. (Sorry if this was unclear.)

    So... can I have those grounds, now? ;)

    By Blogger Bill Heroman, at 9/3/06 10:07 AM  

  • I would like to extend a warm welcome to Maria... Welcome! Thanks for reading, thanks for the encouragement.

    Be blessed,
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 10/3/06 6:27 AM  

  • Matthew, you said,

    Well, I think it is irrelevant whether the selection of officers is by vote, because we have no apostles or their delegates to appoint them.

    Perhaps I have not been fair to your position. In your view, why is it so important that a pastor should be appointed to an office by an apostle?

    I am assuming you don't accept the argument from 1Tim.3:1, "...if a man..." (ei tis GK. it means "any man." I take this to mean any man: when this was first written, when this was first read, when it is being read in our day, and when future generations read it till the Lord comes) "...desire the office of a bishop..." (Strong's says, "episkopē ...specifically [means] the Christian 'episcopate':- the office of a 'bishop', bishoprick, visitation." he desireth a good work.")

    In His fellowship,
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 10/3/06 6:40 AM  

  • Hi HB,

    No... no misunderstanding, I perhaps, was not clear as I tried to answer to many things at once.

    Here again are the grounds I gave earlier,

    I don’t see where Paul told the sheep to serve as shepherds.

    No one could read into this restrictive passage any pattern of leadership since this passage is not dealing with a leadership problem it is dealing with an attitude problem. I believe any local church has the liberty to set up the government of their choosing if it is God’s will. The pattern I lift out of 1Cor. 11 (if any) is order, harmony, sharing with one another love in action. We can’t negate passages like Romans 12 and 13. Did I ever mention the word prax'-is (used in Romans 12:3) means practice, that is, (concretely) an act; by extension a function:- deed, office, work. (boldface mine)Strong’s

    The very Word ep-is'-kop-os (cf. 1Tim.3; Titus 1:7;) means a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer. (Strong’s)
    Thayer’s Definition is
    1) an overseer
    1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
    1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church
    Part of Speech: noun masculine


    One other logical argument I might put out there (from Scripture) is order in the home Eph.5:13 there is structure in a family. I do allow my 10 year old to lead in family Bible time, he wants to! Yet it is clear to all that daddy is the leader (under Christ who is my Head and our Chief Shepherd) the word that we get "pastor" from. The local church is a small part of God's larger family... make sense?

    These are the biblical grounds.

    Have a good and godly day,
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 10/3/06 7:13 AM  

  • Hi John,
    I've been watching the discussion intently and both sides have provoked my thinking but your last comment raised a huge question for me. What hit me when I read your illustration was, "where does the pastor fit in there"? It just seems like an obvious question to me. If Christ is the head of the man and the man is the head of the family then where does the pastor fall in terms of leadership? Is he between Christ and the man or between the man and his family? Thanks in advance for your consideration. ;-)

    By Blogger Kc, at 10/3/06 10:23 AM  

  • Matthew,

    Thanks for those comments, that does change things a bit.

    God bless,
    Jim

    By Blogger Jim, at 10/3/06 11:24 AM  

  • John,

    I do not think you will find scriptural grounds for voting per se.

    The Holy Spirit will set apart leaders for the Church. They will most likely be confirmed by the rest of the body by unity in prayer. However, the church is not a democracy...it is not by the people for the people. It is by Christ, through Christ, and for Christ.

    Further, the pastor is in no way similar to the O.T. priests. We are now a holy nation, a royal priesthood. Every believer has the office of priest.

    Pastor = leader? Yes, but not necessarily. The word pastor is actually better described as shepherd and since the Lord is ultimately our shepherd, He raises up individuals to care for His flock.

    By Blogger Jim, at 10/3/06 11:31 AM  

  • 'Perhaps I have not been fair to your position. In your view, why is it so important that a pastor should be appointed to an office by an apostle?'

    You misunderstand me, John. I hold that a pastor is a gift not an office. Only the Holy Ghost can make a man a pastor.

    Elders are an appointed office.

    Certainly the work of elders may be carried out today. However, there is no power in the Church today to appoint elders.

    If there was such a power, then I would have no idea how I can find out which church in Worcester had true elders or not. Any clues?

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Matthew Celestine, at 10/3/06 1:46 PM  

  • Okay, John...

    1 Cor 11 starts by saying, "When you come together..." so whatever else it says after that, it sure seems to me like it's talking about a meeting and not everyday life. And, in that meeting, "each one has..." something to sing, say or share. In fact, there were so many who wanted to do something during their assemblies that Paul had to say, "Fine. Do everything. Just be nice and take turns." (my paraphrase of "Let everything be done decently and in order.")

    That passage is about a meeting. Want to read it again?

    But neither of the verses you just quoted tells me why ONE of the "elders/shepherds/over-seers" should be the chief of the others. Or can you find a place in any of the passages about elders (which you posted about) where it says that? And can you find a place where it says that one or two of the e/s/o's are supposed to do 95% of all the talking (& songleading) in a meeting?

    I bet you can't. But I wonder what you'll say...

    By the way, Matthew's raised another good point. In the NT, Paul or Titus or Timothy (or Peter) was always around to organize the selection (or, possibly, voting) of elders. Did a traveling apostle stop by in Ohio and help you all select those six men on the site?

    If not - fine with me. But then, just don't say it's perfectly Biblical. (***But who says we have to be Biblical?***)

    :)

    By Blogger Bill Heroman, at 10/3/06 4:22 PM  

  • Hi KC,

    If Christ is the head of the man and the man is the head of the family then where does the pastor fall in terms of leadership?

    My point was that of structure. There is structure in the home and there should be structure in the church… K?

    Hi Jim,

    Good points… still I don’t think you can find anything in the Bible that says Independent Baptist Churches are wrong for selecting their own leaders.

    My view is that the Holy Spirit does set leaders apart for the church. That they will be confirmed to the rest of the body by fasting and prayer and this will be affirmed in an official business meeting of the local assembly (members only) by a vote and the acceptance of the candidate. This will then be made public by a laying on of hands by the deacons and elders and the right-hand of fellowship of the church.

    You are right the pastor is in no way similar to OT priests. See my short post on that topic
    here if you wish, that is very important to note indeed. We are of the same mind on this one, I think.

    I also agree with you that one with the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher does not necessarily qualify him for the office of pastor. In fact there are some pastors who may not have that gift. I use the word pastor interchangeably with bishop and elder.


    Hi Matthew,
    Thank you for your explanation… I think I get it now. No pastors, no church appointed elders, right? We will disagree here, and this is not a fundamental of the faith IMO… I would not leave my church over it.

    If there was such a power, then I would have no idea how I can find out which church in Worcester had true elders or not. Any clues?
    Yes! Find a Bible believing (Baptist ;~) church, become a member, and voice your biblically instructed, Spirit directed, mind of Christ, by your vote.

    Hi HB,

    Read it again. ;)

    I can see you are sharp as a tac. I can go along with your interpretation about a meeting "Fine. Do everything. Just be nice and take turns." I guess that would work out OK… does it?

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 11/3/06 7:12 AM  

  • Our meetings work out just fine most of the time! (But I had the wrong reference; my paraphrase was of 1 Cor 14:40, and the part about a meeting was 14:26 and so on. Sorry for the mistake.)

    Howabout my other questions?

    Any scriptural grounds for making one "elder/shepherd/pastor" the chief of the others?

    Any scriptural grounds for dividing up specific duties among each of those men?

    Any scriptural grounds for selecting "e/s/p"s without the presence of a travelling "apostle"?

    If not - fine with me. But then, just don't say it's perfectly Biblical. (***But who says we have to be Biblical?***)

    :)

    (By the way, we here are NOT entirely scriptural! For example, we love for the women to speak in meetings as much as the men!)

    By Blogger Bill Heroman, at 14/3/06 4:19 PM  

  • OK, let’s see if we can come to an understanding about your other questions?

    Any scriptural grounds for making one "elder/shepherd/pastor" the chief of the others?

    NO! Not chief or top dog or pope or anything like that… only bishop/elder/pastor (cf. Acts 20:17-38; Titus 1:5,7a; 1Pet.5:2; 1Tim.5:17). The office does not denote superiority, just different, abilities and therefore different responsibilities. This is true with those who have other abilities as well.

    Any scriptural grounds for dividing up specific duties among each of those men?

    Yes! Notice with me the wording in Romans 12:3-8;
    I realize how kind God has been to me, and so I tell each of you not to think you are better than you really are. Use good sense and measure yourself by the amount of faith that God has given you. A body is made up of many parts, and each of them has its own use. That's how it is with us. There are many of us, but we each are part of the body of Christ, as well as part of one another.
    God has also given each of us different gifts to use. If we can prophesy, we should do it according to the amount of faith we have. If we can serve others, we should serve. If we can teach, we should teach. If we can encourage others, we should encourage them. If we can give, we should be generous. If we are leaders, we should do our best. If we are good to others, we should do it cheerfully.


    Any scriptural grounds for selecting "e/s/p"s without the presence of a travelling "apostle"?

    Any Scriptural ground why a sovereign local church should not affirm God’s calling?

    If not - fine with me. But then, just don't say it's perfectly Biblical. (***But who says we have to be Biblical?***)

    Hey… I never said Baptists are perfect. If my church was ever perfect it stoped being perfect when this sinner joined! However, I do my best and so does the Baptist church I fellowship with try to follow the Bible and the Lord as faithfully as we know how.

    I assume that is also true of you and your fellowship.

    Thanks for this good discussion,
    brother John

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 14/3/06 7:20 PM  

  • Thanks, and so...

    Why, then, does your team of six "pastors" list one to be the "senior" of them all?

    And...

    It seems that Romans 12:1 ("brethren") and 12:2 ("everyone among you") suggests that everyone in the fellowship is doing these things; not just six men. (Your reply?)

    And...

    Where do you find an example in scripture of letting the same (local) brother give a sermon each week?

    And...

    If a travelling apostle wasn't present when you selected your elders, you can say you were following God - but you can't say you followed the Biblical pattern.

    And...

    I got lots more, too! :)

    Hey, John. Be free, Bro. But I'm here because you opened a discussion on whether or not your Baptist practices are "Biblical".

    They're not.

    Relax, and enjoy it! :)

    By Blogger Bill Heroman, at 15/3/06 10:44 AM  

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