The Earnest Contender

Tuesday, October 30, 2007

The Imminent Rapture

The views expressed here are solely of the author who shall be held accountable. Therefore I tremble, yet I am confident to move forward to proclaim the whole counsel of God.

Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. (1Cor. 15:51-58)

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1Thess. 4:13-18)

What in these passages point to certain things needing to be fulfilled before the rapture?

23 Comments:

Not that spamming person again!

By Matthew Celestine, at 30/10/07 9:20 AM
John, do you believe the return of the Lord could happen at any moment?

If so, are there any prophetic fulfillments that still need to take place before His return?

I can think of one, "and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole earth, then the end shall come."

Perhaps there are others as well?

By Jim, at 30/10/07 11:12 AM
Jim, that could well be an event that takes place within the tribulation. Notice that in Matthew 24, our Lord mentions the preaching of the Gospel of the kingdom (not necessarilly a message of redemption) after referring to a number of things that will happen during the end times.

By Matthew Celestine, at 30/10/07 11:47 AM
Matthew, you raise a valid point. I have never considered it that way. I'll have to read it again.

What about the temple Matthew, do you believe we'll see it rebuilt? Will the offerings resume?

By Jim, at 30/10/07 2:51 PM
Hi Matthew~
He (or it) is awful, a pervert and a heretic.

Yes Jim, I hold to the imminent rapture of the church saints, which is a different event than the return of the Lord to the earth. Herein is the distinction made.

I can think of one, "and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole earth, then the end shall come."

Do you also believe that in this dispensation of grace one must endure to be saved?

Thank you for considering Matthews remarks on this. It does seem to fit in better with the immediate context.

My understanding is that in view of the destruction of the temple the specific requests of the disciples was, “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Jim, do you also think that the world will end when the church saints are caught up and away?

I do not see evidence from the Bible that the temple must be rebuilt before the translation of the church saints. However, I do not see any reason that it may or may not be re-built. I do not think Israel must possess the land, nor do I see any reason that there must be further fulfilled prophesy for the translation to take place. The Temple will be built and sacrifices will be offered there by the last half of the literal seven year tribulation. It may occur many years before that IMHO.

John

By J. Wendell, at 30/10/07 8:24 PM
Jim, yes the temple will be re-buikt.

I am Pre-Wrath, so I think the rapture is not imminent and occurs sometime in the second half of Daniel's Seventieth Week.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 31/10/07 5:25 AM
John,

"Do you also believe that in this dispensation of grace one must endure to be saved?"

Do you then reject Charles Ryrie's view that the tribulation is part of the dispensation of grace?

If so, then what dispensation is the tribulation?

As for enduring to the end to be saved, yes this is necessary now.

If a Christian does not perservere and do works, they will not be able to be saved from the trials and tribulations of this world, as the epistle of James teaches.

A non-enduring Christians will also not be saved from God' sjudgment, first through chastening and then through death.

And a non-enduring Christian will not obtain the goal of salvation, which is too share in Christ's governmental rule in the kingdom.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 31/10/07 5:30 AM
Good point Matthew,

You do make a valid point about enduring to the end, thank you for that. I shall mull that over. I do believe that grace is necessary in all dispensations, but the rapture ends the church age. My time is sparse because I slept in late and did not rise until Mrs. Cole’s alarm went off.

His blessings upon you too,

By J. Wendell, at 31/10/07 6:58 AM
"Do you also believe that in this dispensation of grace one must endure to be saved?"

John, after reading Matthew's comments I would tend to agree with him and his definition.

"Jim, do you also think that the world will end when the church saints are caught up and away?"

John, I do not believe that.

I do believe that after the millenium of Christ's reigning on earth, the old earth and heavens will be dissolved and a new heavens and earth will be established; world without end!

By Jim, at 31/10/07 12:07 PM
Jim, I disagree with you about the dissolving.

2 Peter 3
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Although most Christians think this refers to an event after the Millennium, this is presented here as an event connected with the Lord's coming.

To include the Millennium in the Day of the Lord makes the term 'Day of the Lord' so broad as to be meaningless.

I would argue that the dissolving here is not the destruction of the earth and heavens, but rather their purification. The sinful works and elements of this world will be burnt up, but not the basic structure of the universe.
This will occur just before the Millennium.

The Millennial earth will be those very same New Heavens and New Earth. The only difference will be that death is not eradicated until the end of the Millennium.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 31/10/07 6:05 PM
Hi Jim,

I agree that there will be a new heaven and new earth “world without end Aah’men.. Aah’men…”, but I hope to show in a subsequent post that “the Day of Jehovah” always refers to the seven year tribulation period including the “dissolving”.

I will also continue to explain in more detail the basis of the imminent translation of the church.

Hi Matthew!

By J. Wendell, at 1/11/07 7:34 AM
Matthew,

I admire your consistent attention to scripture. You have made a valid point.

John,

I would appreciate much a greater look into this issue.

By Jim, at 1/11/07 10:08 AM
John-

There are two things that point to certain things needing to be fulfilled.

#1 ~ The timetable of Isaiah 25:8. Since Paul is quoting this OT passage as being fulfilled at the same time as the resurrection of the church, we know that we must progress to the point in prophecy whereby we come to the events in Isaiah 25:8. Isaiah 24:21-23 is clearly speaking of the time when the LORD will reign from Mount Zion at the onset of the Millennial Kingdom. Isaiah 25:7-8 is also talking about this same time period. The veil that is spead over all the nations is being destroyed at the same time that death is being swallowed up in victory. God is wiping away all tears from their eyes as He is resurrecting them. The language is touchingly personal. It is this very resurrection that is being fulfilled as the Apostle Paul writes concerning the resurrection of the church. Since this resurrection is occurring in the same context of Christ seizing control of the nations, we know that it is occurring at His physical, bodily return. Since the passage is poetic, we understand that Isaiah 26:15-21 is a further description of the resurrection described earlier. This timetable narrows it down even further. It is in the midst of Israel's chastening, birth pangs, just before her delivery. The resurrection occurs, then immediately after that the LORD brings His wrath.

#2 ~ The passage in I Thessalonians 5 is a continuation of chapter 4. Paul writes concerning the times and seasons of... of what? of the event Paul just wrote to you about, the coming of the LORD. Then Paul uses the phrase "the day of the LORD" as the time when He will come and resurrect the righteous. Joel 2:31 tells us the sun, moon, and stars will go dark BEFORE the day of the LORD. Paul also writes briefly concerning these times and seasons stating that when they cry peace and safety, then the sudden destruction will come upon them like birth pangs. So here we see that we must progress to the point in prophecy when we are just at the brink of the day of the LORD.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

http://theorangemailman.spaces.live.com/

By Anonymous, at 1/11/07 9:43 PM
Hi Jim and Hello OM,

The question I asked on this post was, "What in these passages [(1Cor. 15:51-58; 1Thess. 4:13-18; which are quoted in the post)] point to certain things needing to be fulfilled before the rapture?"

I am pleased about the use of the whole Bible, particularly if it is directly related to the passages at hand. I also appreciate it when a commenter quotes the Scripture they are referring to. This makes it easier (less work, less time) for all who read to be on the same page with the commenter.

OM, Isaiah will often employ the law of double reference (see Rule 5 here here).

THE LAW OF DOUBLE REFERENCE
A. The Law of Double Reference is the principle of associating similar or related ideas which are usually separated from one another by long period of times, and which are blended into a single picture like the blending of pictures by a stereopticon.

B. Study the following passages of Scripture and determine where the Law of Double Reference was employed:
1. Psalm 16:1-11;
2. Psalm 22:1-31;
3. Psalm 40:l-10;
4. Isaiah 11:1-5;
5. Jeremiah 29:10-14.

Jim, if you are referring to the imminent rapture of the church saints I hope to oblige you soon.

Matthew,
I understand congratulations are in order. Way to go on you new job brother!

John

By J. Wendell, at 2/11/07 7:44 AM
Hello John-

Thank you for the response. I was trying to address your question in the most succinct way possible. There are instances of dual fulfillment in the Bible, but I have never read of a law in the Bible concerning double reference. If Isaiah 25:8 is one of these passages that will be fulfilled at two different points in time, the burden of proof is on you (rule of parsimony) to demonstrate the two points at which they will be fulfilled.

The fact is that Paul gave the specific timing in the passage you quoted. Isaiah 25:8 will be fulfilled at the rapture. I notice that you did not interact with Isaiah 25:8 in showing why it could be fulfilled at any moment. I also notice you did not interact with I Thessalonians 5 which explains the times and seasons of the previous passage.

Both Isaiah 25:8 and I Thessalonians 5:1-3 point to these passages being fulfilled during the time of Jacob's trouble as the LORD physically returns to earth to resurrect the righteous dead. The time of Jacob's trouble begins after the abomination of desolation at the midpoint of Daniel's seventieth week. The time of Jacob's trouble is also known as the Great Tribulation in the NT. The wrath of God is not poured out until after this resurrection whereby God ushers His people behind closed doors, see Isaiah 26:20. This is preceded by Israel crying out to God during the midst of a time known as the birth pangs which results in their repentance which is close to the end of Daniel's seventieth week.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

By Anonymous, at 2/11/07 3:59 PM
Hi OM,

Thank you for your participation. I do not accept the so called idea of a double fulfillment. There is only one fulfillment per prophecy unless Scriptures clearly states otherwise.

The “declarations” #1 and #2 sound very presumptive, Words such as “we know”, “we see”, “we must”, “we are”, who is “we”? Further, without quoting the texts themselves the logic was very difficult to follow, it was for me and I am sure it was for other readers too. Nonetheless, with the encouragement from a kind brother I will do my best to first decipher these objections, and answer them as best as I can. Thank you for understanding that this will NOT be a norm. I would not expect others to do my homework and I do not wish to take extra time to do the homework others.

The Little Apocalypse of Isaiah (Isaiah 24-27:13) as it has been called by theologians who see striking similarities between this passage and Revelation. The earth is in desolation because of the judgments of the tribulation. This tribulation begins after the Rapture of the church saints. The church has been taken up to heaven and are not mentioned in this time of Jacobs trouble, the day of wrath, the day of the Lord, there is not one passage that can be produced that mentions the church saint on earth at this time, not one. The fact that the word “saint” is used describing some who will have to endure to the end of this horrifying period of earths future history, does not refer to the church saint any more than the word “saint” in the Old Testament refers to the church saint. The church saint has been ruptured, snatched away, caught up into glory to be forever with the Lord. (I am feeling preachy now!) One has dogmatically declared that,

Isaiah 24:21-23 is clearly speaking of the time when the LORD will reign from Mount Zion at the onset of the Millennial Kingdom. Isaiah 25:7-8 is also talking about this same time period.

I do not see why this must be so clear. Here is an example of two events that are written about in one passage, this is called double reference. We ;-) read nothing whatsoever in Isaiah 24 about the reign of the Lord from Mt. Zion in this passage until the end of the tribulation is reached, its purposes have been accomplished then…! The word “Then” is employed in the last verse (v. 23). The word “then” refers to after the event so vividly described of the tribulation in verses 1-22, “Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.” This is pointing to a time after the wrath of God is finished, complete, done.

Isaiah 25:6-8 connects a feast with the Kingdom and with the resurrection from the dead. This will be a double wedding feast is for all saints. There is one feast for the Bride of Christ and one for the remarried Wife of Jehovah. This has nothing to do with the imminent rapture of the church saints; I am now on a tangent.

Isaiah 26:15-21 The Rapture includes only the church saints and will happen before the day of the Lord. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected latter this is seen in verse 19, and is clearer in Daniel 12:2; “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Only the righteous will be raised at this time< these are the friends of the bridegroom who will be invited to the wedding feast with which the millennium will begin. This is all after the tribulation.

Since the passage is poetic, [OM] understand[s] that Isaiah 26:15-21 is a further description of the resurrection described earlier.

Please understand I am busy and my time is limited. I do not wish to be rude. In the future it would be most pleasant if you would kindly quote the verses you are referencing. I may choose not to respond at all otherwise. Thank you for honoring these wishes. There are many, many passages in the OT that pertain to the tribulation I simply do not have the fortitude to deal with every one of them. However the one above is a key passage and needed to come under consideration, I would have preferred to treat it in a later post when I came to a study of the tribulation. This post was asking about an event that is looming and it could be today. “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” (1Thessolonians 5:9-11)

As for 1Thessilonians 4 and 5 I am not sure what specifically your point is. I don’t know what you are trying to point out with the connection of Joel 2:31.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. (Joel 2:31) There are a total of five (5) blackouts that are prophesied to occur, Joel 2:31 is the first which will occur before the tribulation or as it is called in this passage “the great and terrible day of the LORD”. This event is after the rapture but before the tribulation the other four blackouts will be during the tribulation which is also after the rapture of the church saints.

I do not wish to be undesirable, haughty, or arrogant, so forgive me if I came across as such.

Blessings upon you,
John

By J. Wendell, at 3/11/07 8:45 AM
Oh did that alien guy show up again?

By Bhedr, at 3/11/07 4:42 PM
A very interesting discussion and good thoughts by Matthew. There will be great loss for the believer who is not faithful, yet the Holy Spirit will continue to baptize him with fiery trials to purge Him. He never gives up on His Children unless he uses them as an example like Ananias and Saphirra to warn us not to sin a sin unto death to warn his other Children, yet even his dreadful chastening is for a good purpose.

By Bhedr, at 3/11/07 5:00 PM
You have had that too? What a rude, unpleasent, and unwelcomed invader.

By J. Wendell, at 5/11/07 10:04 AM
Hello John- Yes, we certainly are busy. Here is a response and if you don't mind, I will post it on my blog as well.

Thank you for the response. I will attempt to deal with every portion of your response to me on my blog here as I don’t want to bring your blog down. I will post the scriptures in with my response so as to not force you to look these scriptures up on your own. First off, the verse in question in I Corinthians 15:54.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The Greek word translated “then” is tote which means “at that time”. Paul is writing that at the time of the resurrection of the church, the prophecy of the resurrection contained in Isaiah 25:8 will be fulfilled. So if we understand the timeline in Isaiah 25, we understand the timeline contained in I Corinthians 15. Now for a quote from your response to me.

The Little Apocalypse of Isaiah (Isaiah 24-27) as it has been called by theologians who see striking similarities between this passage and Revelation. The earth is in desolation because of the judgments of the tribulation

I agree with the main premise that you set forth here. However, concerning this next section...

This tribulation begins after the Rapture of the church saints. The church has been taken up to heaven and are not mentioned in this time of Jacobs trouble, the day of wrath, the day of the Lord, there is not one passage that can be produced that mentions the church saint on earth at this time, not one. The fact that the word “saint” is used describing some who will have to endure to the end of this horrifying period of earths future history, does not refer to the church saint any more than the word “saint” in the Old Testament refers to the church saint. The church saint has been raptured, snatched away, caught up into glory to be forever with the Lord.

This is typical Pre-Trib thinking with no scripture to back it up. Arguments from silence can be made from many angles. The rapture of the church is not said to happen before all of these events, you are simply asserting that it is so. Isaiah 26:15-21 will actually give us a better timetable for the rapture. This next section...

We ;-) read nothing whatsoever in Isaiah 24 about the reign of the Lord from Mt. Zion in this passage until the end of the tribulation is reached, its purposes have been accomplished then…! The word “Then” is employed in the last verse (v. 23). The word “then” refers to after the event so vividly described of the tribulation in verses 1-22, “Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.” This is pointing to a time after the wrath of God is finished, complete, done.

I have no major disagreements with this section.

Isaiah 25:6-8 connects a feast with the Kingdom and with the resurrection from the dead. This will be a double wedding feast is for all saints. There is one feast for the Bride of Christ and one for the remarried Wife of Jehovah. This has nothing to do with the imminent rapture of the church saints; I am now on a tangent.

Here is the question that I would like an answer to. If this passage has nothing to do with the rapture of the church, why does the Apostle Paul insist that the prophecy of Isaiah 25:8 will be brought to pass at the same time as an event which you insist describes the rapture of the church in I Corinthians 15:51-58? This is the main point and not a tangent. It is not a double wedding feast, unless you can point out to me the word “double” in the passage. It is described as A feast unto ALL people. The conclusion is that this resurrection described in Isaiah 25:8 occurs at the same time as the resurrection in I Corinthians 15:54. Since you have established that the events of Isaiah 25:6-8 are not Pre-Trib from your study of Isaiah 24-25, your timeline concerning a Pre-Trib rapture is incorrect. You must either give up a post trib view of Isaiah 24-25, or a pre trib view of I Corinthians 15:51-58 since Paul says they occur at the same time.

The Rapture includes only the church saints and will happen before the day of the Lord. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected latter this is seen in verse 19, and is clearer in Daniel 12:2; “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Only the righteous will be raised at this time< these are the friends of the bridegroom who will be invited to the wedding feast with which the millennium will begin. This is all after the tribulation.

The resurrection of the righteous must include both Old Testament and New Testament saints as the writer of Hebrews tells us in Hebrews 11. In verse 35 we see that these Old Testament saints looked to obtain a better resurrection. Shortly after this, the writer asserts that “all these... through faith received not the promise”. Then verse 40 tells us plainly, “God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” This passage shows that there is no separation between those Old Testament saints and New Testament saints when it comes to the resurrection. As the passage continues with, “Wherefore seeing we also are compasssed about with so great a cloud of witnesses...” it shows that we are in the same body as those OT saints. This is the main point of Ephesians 2:11-22 as well.

Also note that as one who holds to a PreWrath rapture, I agree that the rapture will take place before the day of the LORD and the pouring out of His wrath. I disagree that these terms happen at the same time as the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins at the midpoint of Daniel’s seventieth week and continues until Christ shows up. The day of the LORD begins when Christ shows up cutting short the days of the Great Tribulation.

Isaiah 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. 15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth. 16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them. 17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. 18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Concerning Isaiah 26:13-21, here is another passage explaining how the dead will be raised. This is a further explanation of the passage in Isaiah 25:8. If one is reading through Isaiah, they would understand Isaiah 26:13-21 to be sort of a poetic commentary on Isaiah 25:8. The timeframe is the time of Jacob’s trouble as Israel is calling upon their God to save them. The imagery of a woman in birthpain is given. In the midst of this time of pain for Israel also comes her deliverance. The resurrection which Isaiah saw in 25:8 is now being explained further. The dead are raised to life and ushered behind closed doors. This resurrection and gathering takes place just before the indignation as the LORD arises out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. Here the order is simple, the time of Jacob’s trouble, followed by Israel calling out to God, followed by resurrection/gathering, followed by the LORD’s coming to pour out His anger and wrath which includes punishing the dragon/serpent (27:1 continues the passage).

From this passage we understand that the resurrection which takes away the rebuke of His people (Isaiah 25:8) happens as Israel is going through the birth pains as they cry out for deliverance. The LORD arises out of His place just after He resurrects His people and ushers them behind closed doors. So this is really a Pre-Wrath resurrection that we see in this passage.

As for 1Thessilonians 4 and 5 I am not sure what specifically your point is. I don’t know what you are trying to point out with the connection of Joel 2:31.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. (Joel 2:31) There are a total of five (5) blackouts that are prophesied to occur, Joel 2:31 is the first which will occur before the tribulation or as it is called in this passage “the great and terrible day of the LORD”. This event is after the rapture but before the tribulation the other four blackouts will be during the tribulation which is also after the rapture of the church saints.

Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? 15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

I’ll deal with Joel 2:31 first. The context of Joel 2 is that Israel is going through the time of Jacob’s trouble, see 2:12-17. This is a repentance that has never been fulfilled throughout all of Israel’s history. The LORD’s response as recorded in 2:18-27 has never been fulfilled either. Here is verse 27 to demonstrate.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

This is after the time of Jacob’s trouble when Israel repents. So the events which follow in Joel 2:28-32 are actually after the time of Jacob’s trouble but just before the day of the LORD. I realize that you believe that the day of the LORD and the time of Jacob’s trouble run concurrently, but there is no scripture to prove this. Joel chapter 3 describes the day of the LORD when God pours out His wrath on the nations.

Since you have already posted I Thessalonians 4:13-18, I will post I Thessalonians 5:1-11.

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort F12 yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Here the day of the LORD, which begins with the cosmic signs found in Joel 2:31, is said to bring sudden destruction with it. Yet there is a cry of peace and safety which comes before this point in time. Paul encourages the believers, not that they will miss this day, but that they will know the times and seasons for its arrival. These believers are not in darkness that the day will overtake them as a thief, but they will be prepared for it when it arrives. When the day of the LORD arrives (after the false cry of peace and safety) is when the deliverance from the wrath to come occurs. II Thessalonians 2 is a further clarification of this very subject that Paul had previously written to the church about.

Here is the question that I would like an answer to. If there is no event to be fulfilled before the classic rapture passage, why does the Apostle Paul continue writing of this event stating that a cry of peace and safety must come first and further, that believers would know the times and seasons since they are children of the light and wouldn’t be overtaken by this event like a thief in the night?

That’s about all I have time for today. Thanks for the response.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

By Anonymous, at 7/11/07 10:50 PM
Hi OM,

I am honored that you have taken the time to leave such a lavish comment on this topic. I am blessed that there are brothers and sisters who do not just go with the flow. The body of Christ needs more like you. I also appreciate your courtesy. Did I understand that you have a blog? Then there should be no reason to remain anonymous. A link to your blog may help other readers to have access to your position.

I am sure you do not mean to bring my blog down, or force me to look Scriptures up on my own even though I am a typical pre-trib thinker arguing from silence. I of course did NOT say the passage sited was a tangent I specifically said, “I am now on a tangent.” This is a real problem for me, those who know me best can attest. I do appreciate the fact that you quoted the Scriptures pertinent to your position and made your questions more clear for this dummy to understand. I think I can grasp your ideas much better now.

If I get back to answer your questions it will have to be at a future date. I also have a plethora of activities that require my time. I hope you understand. This blog is not my priority. I do think your mind is set. May you be blessed and in good cheer,

Till He comes (whenever it is),
John

P.S. I do hope to get back to your questions and comments, it will be awhile though.

By J. Wendell, at 8/11/07 7:08 AM
Hello John-

Thanks for the response. I posted a link to my blog at the bottom of one of my comments. Here it is again.

http://theorangemailman.spaces.live.com/

I have established identities on other boards and such, but I don't have a google identity or account, which is what it looks like your blog requires. Or maybe I have one and forgot my password (big sigh).

I posted my response on my blog as well. I hope you don't mind.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

By Anonymous, at 8/11/07 9:59 PM
Hi OM,
Thanks for the address.

I posted a link to your fine web site on my side bar. It looks as if you are enjoying a lively debate between yourself and a pre-trib blogger ;-) Be sure to check out the other posts on my side bar too.

BTW there are a lot of good believers out there who are orthodox in doctrine and don't hold to either of our views, they bless me, and you may find they will be a blessing to you too.

John

By J. Wendell, at 10/11/07 7:24 AM