The Earnest Contender

Monday, September 24, 2007

Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the Best Position (2)

I got this idea from Dr. Bob Shelton when he came to our church many years ago. He is great speaker and his web site here I am not quoting him word for word, but the ideas are his, enjoy.

If I am right, and I believe I am the pre-trib position is the very best position to hold to. When Christ comes in the clouds and catches us away on our way up I will look over and smile at you and you will understand at that time I am thinking, “See I told you so!” Then we who have believed in Jesus for eternal life will finally enjoy fellowship untainted by sin, as we fix our gaze upon the prince of glory and are forever with Him.

If I am wrong, and I don’t think I am, but if I am and the seven year tribulation begins, and I am still here then I simply change my position to mid-trib. Three and a half years latter when we are gloriously ruptured, on the way up I will look over and smile at you as if to say “See I told you so!” Then we who have trusted in Christ alone for everlasting life will at last enjoy fellowship uncontaminated by sin, as we fix our eyes on upon the King of Kings and are with Him forevermore.

However, if I am still wrong and we are not taken up half way through the tribulation and we are still here, then I simply change my position again, this time to post-trib. Then after surviving the terrible time that will be so devastating… when God is pouring out His wrath upon this earth… men shrink back and ask the rocks of the hills to cover them to hide from God’s furry… Then we who were protected by our loving God, Jesus who died on the cross to save us from the eternal penalty of sin, will be lifted away in the twinkling of an eye and I will look over at you and smile, as if to say, “See I told you so!” Then we will enjoy the comforts of our new abode and in harmonious fellowship, free from the curse of sin, we will together praise the Lord and enjoy His companionship sin free, from then on.

I hope it is plane to see why the pre-trib position is the best position of all. ;-)

I need to make this last point. This last point is the one that could have the most impact in your life. It has the power to turn you life around. You may have enjoyed this little lesson on end times, or perhaps you have not, the fact remains... there will be a day of reckoning. Jesus is coming! You will be judged, if you have not believed in Him. That is a sobering fact. I do not take it lightly and neither should you. Jesus Christ died on the cross to save you from your sin, He rose again to prove that you may be forgiven of your sin and have eternal life through Him. He even promises that you will be resurected one day. Why not believe Him today, before the tribulation begins. (cf. 1 Cor. 15)

Soberly in Christ,
John

19 Comments:

John- You write that "The rapture is not the second coming and the second coming is not the rapture." I think it is good to differentiate between these two different events, but why does Paul insist that the rapture happens when Christ comes.

"...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." This seems to be saying that Jesus will bring those who have died in Christ with Him when He comes again.

Next verse "...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord". How could the Apostle Paul be speaking of events that do not happen at the same time as His coming?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

By Anonymous, at 24/9/07 6:16 PM
-TOM,
Welcome to TEC.

I am glad you are reading your Bible very carefully, and thank you for allowing me to think with you on this subject. Perhaps putting the texts into there context will help us.

I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18)

I do not wish to take a whole lot of time with this, but I will offer you my Fly over or drive by ideas.

1 Paul’s desire is for the church (those in Christ, brothers and sisters) not to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep. Now at the great consternation of some I will come right out and state that I do not believe in soul sleep. That is that those who die are held in some mystic suspended animation, or unconsciousness. Do you recall the passage that says, “…to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (2Cor. 5:8 not to neglect the context).

My conclusion here, however profoundly silly, is that the material essence of man is 6 feet under and the immaterial essence of man is with the Lord.

2 Moving out of the text again, just briefly, let’s glance at Acts 1:9-12; “…when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey.” (Not to, once again, neglect the context)

Jesus went up in the cloud and he will come in the cloud.

3 When the dead in Christ come with Him to receive us notice that they are also raised first. (1Thess. 4:16-17) “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This is no more of a problem if we understand that the material essence is raised to be reunited with the immaterial essence of man.

4. Christ “coming” to rapture or snatch His church away is not the return of Christ to the earth. He will do that at a later time, seven years later in my humble but correct view ;-) and that will be to set up His literal one thousand year reign.

It is possible for you to come and meet me with out you coming to my house. Similarly, Christ will come to gather His church in the cloud at the rapture and then (seven years later) "come again" to the earth with His armies with Him.

“ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Rev.19:11-21)

Sorry to be brief.

Nice to have The Orange Mailman visit.

By J. Wendell, at 24/9/07 9:24 PM
(1Thess. 4:16-17) “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

The problem with your position, John, is that it says the Lord descends.

It does not say that the Lord descends and then stops halfway. Nor does it say that He goes back up again.

The natural meaning of this text would be that the Lord descends to earth, meeting His church along the way.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 25/9/07 4:00 AM
Matthew,
Thank you for your comment and challenge. I do not wish to make a fuss over this, so I promise that I will change my position when the man of sin (a world political/religious leader that comes in the name of one world order in peace) signs a peace treaty with Israel and I am still here. ;-) ;-) ;-) OK this is a copout.

Matthew, I respect your opinions, because you take time to think through biblical issues in an honest way. If I did wish to engage you on this I would have to point out two flaws in your rebuke.

1. Neither does the text specifically state that He will descend to earth.

2. The natural flow may be that He keeps descending, except for that “stopping” idea, because they are not meeting on the earth, but in the air.

3. His church is being caught up with Him in the air. Who is? The Church is; those who are asleep (i.e. their material essence meeting with their immaterial essence) and those who are alive and remain. Remain where? Remain in their bodies on earth, till they are snatched away together with them. Where? One should admit not on earth, but… in the air. (This third point is extra. No charge). :-)

These were given so that the Thessalonians would comfort one another. Those in Christ, who have gone on are not in a place of suffering, such as purgatory, (purgatory had not yet been invented when Paul wrote this letter). Instead, they are with the Lord. Matthew, we will be in heaven together someday! We will join their company. Does that not bring comfort if not out right giddy joy! Thanks for reading here, brother, you keep me on my toes (I say this with no shoes on my feet) that is a fine quality. You are a good brother in Christ.

His blessings to you,
John

By J. Wendell, at 25/9/07 5:55 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

I hope I never seem combative.

I hate the belligerent tone of some Post-tribbers.

By Matthew Celestine, at 25/9/07 8:54 AM
I think the reference to descending means we cannot arbitrarily put this into the category of 'coming for the church' as distinct from 'coming to the world.'

By Matthew Celestine, at 25/9/07 9:04 AM
Hi Matthew,

We are not "arbitrarily" putting this into a category... this verse of the bible declares it that believers will be caught up in the air with the Lord. Not to be forever in heaven, but to be forever with the Lord. That to me is the best and big idea here... we will be together with the Lord! No matter what position we presently hold.

Here is an adio sermon preached by Dr. Bob Shelton on The Rapture of the Church.

By J. Wendell, at 26/9/07 6:05 AM
The second advent is just that, an advent.

It begins with the rapture, and it will take 7 years for Jesus and His saints to make it to the earth.

There are no two separate comings. Jesus is coming only once. The rapture is just the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Antonio

See -- Jesus, God's Prophet, by Zane Hodges, available through kerugma, inc.

By Antonio, at 27/9/07 6:56 PM
Post-Tribulatinism is not dispensationalism.

Antonio

By Antonio, at 27/9/07 6:57 PM
If you are right brother and I think you are then I will put in a request and ask the Lord if he will give you a large (preferably White Macadamia) cookie and then we can rejoice together at finally being home.

By Bhedr, at 27/9/07 9:36 PM
Thank you for your profound insight Antonio.

By J. Wendell, at 28/9/07 6:07 AM
White Macadamia!
Is that a new Girl Scout cookie?
Buy enough to share.

By J. Wendell, at 28/9/07 6:09 AM
Subway brother. U can have one but the rest are mine. 3 for a $1

One rapture cookie for you and the other two are my banquet cookies.

I still have a twist in something about the rapture I may discuss with you later. Have to go to West Virginia now. My aunt just died. Dads sis. Aunt Sissy

By Anonymous, at 28/9/07 4:19 PM
Thanks for the cookie Brian.
I'll brew the coffee.
I am looking forward to the discussion. I will pray for your safety, your Dad and Aunt Sissy's family.

In His care,
Brother John

By J. Wendell, at 29/9/07 5:09 AM
Antonio, why do you say that Post-Tribulationalism is incompatible with Dispensationalism?

By Matthew Celestine, at 29/9/07 7:07 AM
Matthew,

among a wide array of things, post-tribulationism:

1) blurs the distinction between Israel and the church

Gundry, "The distinctinvness of the church tends toward pretribulationism. The oneness of the church with the saints of other dispensations tends toward posttribulationism" (The Church and the Tribulation, 22-23)

"Evidence abounds that the Church merges with God's people of all ages..." (Ibid, 21-22)

2) redefines the mystery character of the church

"... there are Old Testament prophecies which specifically mention and imply the present age. These prophecies provide support for a connection between Israel and the Church, between Old Testament prophecy and the present age." (Ibid, 14) and "... the Old Testament predict[ed] the present age... they affirm at least partial fulfilments of the OT in the Church and the present age." (Ibid, 15).

Robert Gundry is not dispensational, but covenant premil.

Antonio

By Antonio, at 29/9/07 5:07 PM
Antonio, Gundry made some comments in that book that do lean strongly towards Prog Dispism, though they might just have easily been made by Erich Sauer.

While Gundry might be even leakier in his Dispensationalism than MacArthur, he does make the point that the issue cannot be settled on Dispensational grounds alone.

You make two points:

1. You have not really explained how it does this.

I and many other Post-Tribbers would put the final deliverance of Israel after the rapture, at the appearing of Christ. That fundentally separates the destinies of Israel and the Church.

In fact, I got that point from Gundry. Seeing that the remnant of Israel was saved after the rapture gradually lead me to see that God's dealings with Israel were separate from the Church.

Gundry is to blame for making me a Dispensationalist.

2. Yes, Gundry makes that point, but he does not necessarilly come to that conclusion because of his Post-Tribulationalims.

Prog Dispists like Bobby Grow are moving to that positionn while still holding to the Pre-Tribulational rapture.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 30/9/07 3:55 AM
Thanks John,

I need to crankstart to get up some more energy for discussion. I may be out for a while cause this stuff gets to deep and I am really really busy with my father in law and all. Thanks for your prayers and Sissys funeral was powerful. I wept through the whole thing. Praise the Lord. Shes with the Lord

Brian

By Only Look, at 10/10/07 10:59 PM
Hi Brian,

Glad you are back safe and sound, and that all went well. It is a blessing to have true comfort from the Lord that when those in Him pass they are with Him.

John

By J. Wendell, at 11/10/07 6:57 AM