The Earnest Contender

Saturday, October 20, 2007

A Mill ? Post Mill? Pre Mill?

There are a variety of views and within this variety there are yet more varieties. What is your view? I will declare my view as a Futuristic Pre Mill. Perhaps you have questions about that too. I will respond as best as I can in a spirit of Christian love and respect for you.

John

24 Comments:

John I’m very weak in my convictions on eschatology so I appreciate these articles and follow them with great interest. At present I would tend to agree with your position but I could not properly defend it.

(BTW I have nominated you and the Mrs. For an award) ;-)

By Kc, at 20/10/07 11:04 AM
I'm a pan-millenialist.. it will all pan out in the end :)

By kc bob, at 20/10/07 5:43 PM
Historic Premillennialism

By Shawn, at 20/10/07 10:33 PM
Post-Tribulational, Seventh trumpet, pre-wrath of the lamb, premillennial transformative, 24-hour Day of the Lord, regenerated earth, Pauline Dispensational Premillennial.

I came up with that description of my eschatology.

By Matthew Celestine, at 22/10/07 4:37 AM
I think both Amil and post mil are seriously deficient in their context of the whole scripture.

Having said that, I would obviously hold to a pre-mill with a few caveats.

The biggest flaw in premil doctrine is the rapture of all the saints prior to the tribulation.

This view is untenable with the clear warnings in Revelation to overcome. Also, Jesus gave many parables about those servants who were watching for their masters return versus those who grew lazy and careless.

By Jim, at 25/10/07 12:01 PM
Et tu, Jim?

By Matthew Celestine, at 26/10/07 5:05 AM
Hi Matthew, what was your question? ;)

By Jim, at 26/10/07 11:45 AM
Hi KC~
Thank you for the nomination! I have sort of been AWOL from the blogosphere while tending to other (not necessarily more important) matters.

I intend to make clear my approach to the matter of the future events. I’m thinking that since prophecy is almost 1/3 of the Bible we ought to take it into consideration.
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Hi Kansas Bob,

I have come to the pre-mill, pre-trib position I hope to get back and explain why.

Thanks for expressing your opinion with us.
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Hi Shawn,

You are perhaps in the strong majority, we will line up in some things but there will be some gaps between our views.
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Hey DF-

You are very articulate. I don’t need to second guess where you stand. Maybe I do? Hmm… Do you agree with Marvin Rosenthal?
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Hi Jim,

You said, “The biggest flaw in pre-mil doctrine is the rapture of all the saints prior to the tribulation.”

I do not think it is possible for “all” saints to be ruptured before the Tribulation. There will be those who become saints during the tribulation and during the 1000 year reign of Messiah. I do not think there is any support that those who became saints before Pentecost will be caught up either. As for those “who are watching for the Lords return” that will occur during the literal seven year Tribulation in my humble opinion, and I hope to demonstrate why I believe this is so.
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It cannot be stressed enough as we (GK. For those who agree to enter into this study or mental exercise with me) discus these various views that we remain respectful to each other as brothers and sisters in Christ so that we may enjoy His every blessing. Remember that there may be some who are interested in the central claims of Christ that men/ women may be born-again into a new family, God’s family.

Amen

By J. Wendell, at 26/10/07 9:12 PM
I am pre-trib. I still struggle with Daniels mentioning the purpose of the tribulation to purify and purge and with the Philedelphia church only being promised to be removed from the hour of testing. I just still feel there is a twist in there that leaves room for backslidden christians to be left behind in the tribulation to be sanctified by the intense trials. I know some of my pre tribing friends may call me a heretic for this, but I will stand here and say that there does appear to be in my opinion room for this.

I know you and Matthew will shoot me down from both angles so go ahead and fire away, but....

Hearken all:-)

Lets be watching and waiting for His return so that we can be caught up in the first rapture and not have to wait until his complete return or have to die a Martyrs death..

Remember that John alone was kept and did not have to die and he was called up and note that he was close and intimate with the Saviour. I really do believe the Word Of God gives creedence to this view. Are there others with my view here?

By Bhedr, at 26/10/07 11:51 PM
Brian, plenty of men have adopted the Partial Rapture view- GH Lang, Joseph Seiss, Watchman Nee

By Matthew Celestine, at 27/10/07 5:38 AM
Jim, I was referring to Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar.

When Caesar recognises his friend Brutus among his murderers, just before his death, he says:

'Et tu Brute?' (and you, Brutus?)

It was a gesture of surprise.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 27/10/07 5:40 AM
John, funnily enough I am re-adjusting my position on the rapture at the moment.

I am moving from the standard Post-Trib view to Rosenthal's Pre-Wrath view.

I have come to realise that my Pos-Trib view was dependant upon the Seals covering the entire Seventieth Week and the Trumpets and Vials being an overlapping series of judgments. I now no longer think that is tenable, so I think Pre-Wrath makes more sense.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 27/10/07 5:42 AM
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your comment.

Soot you down!?! Brother, if I may? We (you and I) need to build one another up! The idea that our Lord will one day catch us away to be with Him forever is a "blessed" hope.
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Hi Matthew,

funnily enough I am re-adjusting my position on the rapture at the moment.

Good! There is hope for you yet.
;-)

BTW Have you read some of the articles at prewrathrapture.com?

By J. Wendell, at 27/10/07 7:09 AM
Yes and at other websites.

I am reading Robert Van Kampen's book on the rapture.

I read Marvin Rosenthal when I was 20, but back then I was too dogmatic about Post-Tribulationalism to appreciate it.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at 27/10/07 9:15 AM
Hi John,

I am still premil (of the progressive dispy flavor), and pre-trib (although pre-wrath, a la Van Kampen, Rosenthal, and prewrath.com have some good points to ponder).

What's your trib view, John?

By Anonymous, at 29/10/07 1:15 AM
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for sharing that. It helps me to see where others are coming from.
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Hi Bobby,
Thanks for the visit.

This post should answer your question about my position.
Pre-tribulation Rapture is the Best

I am going to explain further as soon as I get caught up with other pressing matters.

John

By J. Wendell, at 29/10/07 6:50 AM
Matthew, I hope my statement did not make you feel I was betraying you.

I am definitely premil but I think there are some details regarding the tribulation period that we tend to gloss over.

Brian,

I would agree with your understanding as you have stated it. In my view this interpretation gives much strength to the passages that discuss inheriting the kingdom.

Good discussion here John.

By Jim, at 29/10/07 12:48 PM
Oops, I should've looked in your sidebar first, thanks John.

By Anonymous, at 29/10/07 2:16 PM
Hi Jim,

Yes, I agree, and thank you for your participation.
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Hi Bobby,
I did'nt think about that either.

;-)

John

By J. Wendell, at 30/10/07 7:12 AM
Hey John. Soot? Dont like chimneys. Methinks of Dick Van Dyke. Hahahaha.

Matthew? I didnt realize that. I'll have to check their views out? Are there any links you can give me to see their thoughts?

Jim,

Cool bro. You and I kinda think alike in a lot of areas methinks as well.

By Bhedr, at 3/11/07 4:34 PM
Whats this talk of pre-wrath. Can someone explain that position to me?

By Bhedr, at 3/11/07 4:37 PM
Hi Brian,
Here is their explanation…

Pre-wrath Rapture

By J. Wendell, at 5/11/07 10:10 AM
Thanks John. Interesting article. What do they do at these pre-wrath conferances? Drive around in figure 8's.

By Bhedr, at 5/11/07 9:27 PM
Just gotta read I guess?

By J. Wendell, at 6/11/07 9:23 AM